Podcast Episode 63:
You're listening to the Art Problems Podcast, episode 63. I'm your host, Paddy Johnson. This is the podcast where we talk about how to get more shows, grants, and residencies. And today on the show, I speak with Ceri Hand, a registered coach for artists and high level creative professionals. Ceri has worked with Sotheby's London. Goldsmiths and the British arts council. And she is committed to helping a hundred thousand professionals by 2025.
Paddy: Ceri, welcome to the show.
Ceri: Thank you so much for having me, Paddy. What an absolute pleasure to join you.
Paddy: So I am super excited to have you here because you have such an extensive background in the arts and we have some, uh, colleagues in common. I think you recently, semi recently, uh, spoke to Christian Baveros Fane, who's a critic and also entrepreneur.
Paddy: I think. And I wanted to begin by talking to you about how you got into the arts. And I'm particularly interested in your position as the Associate Director of Institutional Relationships at Simon Lee Gallery and then later of the founder of your gallery. gallery, which operated from 2008 to 2014. Can you just give us a sense of, uh, what your career trajectory has looked like?
Ceri: Sure. Thank you so much for inviting me. Um, I trained as an artist originally. So, um, but I went to an art school, um, in the North of England. So not one of the sort of fancy she, she ones. But it was perfect for me and that it was a mixed media degree. And I left the obligatory, uh, traveling after college came back to the city.
Ceri: It was Bradford in the North of England and set up an artist studio and co run that studio. for, for a group of about 20 artist makers with other artists. So I carried on being an artist until I went back to do an MA in printmaking and critical theory. And, um, I guess it was the perfect finding for me in that it was kind of, it was the left, Left center, left wing department in the college, and it gave me the, I guess, the radical evaluation of what I was doing.
Ceri: I guess the, um, criticality, if you like, the discursiveness around art making, I think was really where I cut my chops. So it was, um, making and thinking and articulating the thought process, I guess. Um, I decided that I needed to leave. Bradford to move to London. So as soon as my, um, art show was finished, I got on a bus with a TV, portable TV, and a rucksack and went and kicked on my friend's floor in London, um, and then started doing freelance work.
Ceri: Uh, I worked in a sandwich shop, a friend's sandwich shop whilst I basically tried to understand the landscape of the art world in London. And it was a very different time before social media. And so it really was about like picking up zines or. You know, brochures, uh, whatever, wherever you could find an artist network, you have to jump on buses.
Ceri: It was impossible to kind of search, um, or just do a kind of scroll as to where artists studios were. So I ended up working.
Paddy: like, well, what year was that approximately? That was,
Ceri: uh, 97, 1997, 98, you know, I'm kind of old. I've been in the art world for 30 years now. So I. Hit a London that was really much more spread out.
Ceri: The commercial art scene really hadn't taken roots. There were a few amazing places like Maureen Paley or Lisson Gallery. There were great public spaces, but there was a really brilliant DIY scene, you know, so I finally found my.
Paddy: spread out across the city.
Ceri: Oh yeah, enormous. Um, it was spread out across the city, but where I landed was the East End, which is now, it still is one of the biggest artist networks in, um, Europe, I believe, for the arts.
Ceri: So I happened to be in Hackney, which was where I was part of the developing art scene there, where the YBAs, I guess, were getting off the ground. And I started working for a women's art magazine called Make, and I started as an intern and then within a couple of years I ended up being the director. And it was a charity that published an art magazine specialising of women artists, but it also had this library and resource that was started as a slide library. For women's work and it had people like the Guerrilla Girls through to other artists that were perhaps less of well known and actually there was no hierarchy other than they were making work and um, Submitting slides and it developed into this incredible resource. So I started working with them in 98, 99. And I think in 99, we launched this award for women artists called the 1999 Olay Award for Women in Association with Olay and Make Magazine. And it was, I guess, the start of really bridging this public private because at the time in 99, the public and private sector were much more separate in the UK in particular.
Ceri: So the idea of the private sector supporting the publicly funded sector by collaborating on an art prize, or we commissioned artworks for Channel 4. Um, and actually, It was for ITV, because they went out before Coronation Street, which is a popular soap opera in the UK. And, um, we had people like Rachel Whiteread's mum. She was amazing. And Tracey Emin did what they called adcasts. And it became a big splash on Newsnight and this idea of should they get into partnerships. And, um, I guess the reason I'm sharing that is because it, I really, I guess, didn't understand, um, why artists should be always working on the edges of things. Why, when really they were making things that were as important and as instructive to how we live and how we think as things that were being commissioned for TV and film and in much more kind of popular areas. I suppose.
Paddy: I think like that, that particular, uh, point of view is really interesting too, because it comes out of a particular time, right? Like the 1990s and aughts, there's a lot of intellectual activity talking about. Um, maybe like the, not necessarily the difference of pop culture, but how pop culture and visual arts are kind of integrated. And I feel like the writers at that time that did the best were the ones who could really kind of give us a set of codes and the artists that I think many of us were very interested in at that time were also able to. Do things that kind of straddle that line in some way. And I think, you know, the time that we're in now is, uh, you know, quite different that time, I think was really unique that in part for the dominance of television.
Ceri: That's right. I think, um, there were, in fact, the first person on my podcast, Extraordinary Creatives, was Sue Webster, who was, uh, really important and influential in London at that time, working with her then partner, Tim Noble, and doing lots of kind of DIY, um, Uh, shows and making a huge impact and selling work to Saatchi, despite the fact, you know, they also, um, came, actually studied in Bradford. So, this idea that artists could move to the centre and start doing, creating, you know, Scenes, if you like, was important, but also the fact that people were getting thirsty and excited and encouraged by artists thinking at that time. It's really important to thinking in a slightly different way. And I know lots of artists feel they get the ick when, um, we talk about being entrepreneurial or, you know, but actually it was that kind of, um, we have nothing, we're making stuff from nothing and we can make an impact. It was that punk kind of DIY spirit that in a weird way was also the reason why I think it's important to think about how we can make opportunities for artists today, drawing on some of that spirit.
Paddy: You would say that the punk DIY spirit, you like the ugly word we might attach to it, is entrepreneurial. Even if, uh, as a coach, I won't speak for you, but as for, for me personally, as a coach, I don't necessarily see entrepreneurial as a bad word. And I do think that it's a quality that many artists have.
Ceri: Yeah, that's right. I think a lot of people are working today in setting up and establishing their own small or micro businesses or trying to have a positive impact on the planet. I think there is a lot of creativity in the way that they connect with people or communicate with people. And of course there are crossovers, but I think like you Pally, one of the things that I'm committed to is helping artists to, um, earn more money, make more money doing what they love, but also have a bigger impact in the world. I guess, back to your original question, the reason that I mentioned that particular time, because it was formative in me thinking, okay, so I moved from being an artist to actually that discursiveness of like encouraging people to talk through ideas or to have ideas and manifest them in reality in some way. I guess I saw people doing that in the public and private sector, and I also saw no reason why artists couldn't and shouldn't be earning more money doing what they love. So, um, whilst I, I worked for a charity for that period of time, and then I moved to run a residency program back in the north of England after working at MAPE for a few years. I then moved to the north of England, which is a bit like, I mean, American terms, you know, it's no distance whatsoever, but in the UK, the kind of the north south divide was a big thing in that time. So learning how to create artists work with artists in a rural location outside of the centre to attract press and publicity, to commission work outside and as well as get it touring. I guess that really helped me to understand if you can attract press, if you can attract sales from working outside of the city. I guess that was a way that I could learn how to help artists. Um, if I move back to the city to think more expansively about their practice and how they connect and communicate their work at a much grander scale.
Paddy: I feel like we need to transport you here to the U. S. too so that you can help all of us because there are So many, I mean, I think that that is something in the U S that a lot of the artists who are listening to this podcast are really concerned about, you know, some of them live in city centers, but a lot of them don't, you know, and what do you do to get attention for your work when you live in a place where people don't visit that often? You know, also, how do you get people to pay attention to the press that you do get? When they may not get to that location. And so I think all of those things are really important to an artist's career. I did want to circle back to something that you had said a little bit earlier, where you talked about how. You felt like artists were sidelined a little bit from the center of things, whatever, whatever we decide things means, but, uh, front, maybe from the center of economic activity within the art world, do you feel like that was this, uh, sentiment that you felt in the 1990s? Does that carry through to today or do you feel like that is different?
Paddy: Do you feel like there are more opportunities for artists or less or is it all just different?
Ceri: Um, I think what I've understood now, like you Polly, coaching artists, um, every single day I hang out with artists. So I do a virtual and in real life studio visits with artists and I guess the same things are reoccurring, which is one of the reasons that I launched my course, Unlock Your Art World Network, which is an affordable online course, is because the one thing we don't get taught at art school or anywhere else is how to build relationships if you're an introvert or you would rather be in the studio. And I know you speak to this a lot too. And I think as a self confessed creative introvert myself, you know, I've learned some of the tools. of how to connect and communicate on a much larger scale by building deep relationships one at a time. And I think the same, it doesn't matter in my opinion, where you are in the world, where you live and work, as long as you are committed to participating in the contemporary art world that you want to participate in.
Ceri: And I say that because, again, something I know you speak to, Pari, is that there are many art worlds, and there are many overlapping art worlds, and being honest about which one you want to participate in is important, because there are rules, codes, systems, that demystifying that is incredibly important, but in the first instance, being honest about what kind of relationships you want to have, who, with, and why, is the first step. So I hear very often from artists, you know, that they want to meet more curators or more collectors or more gallerists. And I say, OK, so who? Which ones? And actually there is, uh, there's just this blanket terminology when, because they have a sense that that's what they should do or they want to do, whereas in actual fact, they haven't done the research on who they want to be connected to or in alignment with, and they don't know what that person does or is responsible for. So, in the first instance, when we start identifying, you know, what kinds of people do we want to run with? Who are, who are our running mates, if you like? Who is our tribe? And being honest about what kind of work they do. So, let's say, for example, I'm an artist working in a rural space, in a rural town, either it's in the UK or America.
Ceri: I have an amazing studio because I can afford to have a bigger studio. So there's a really good reason as to why you might want to work outside of an economic centre. However, wanting people to see the work is possible now, which it wasn't back in the 90s, in that you can have online studio visits. And I think taking responsibility for having as many studio visits as possible, online or in real life, is part of how you build relationships with curators, with collectors, with writers, with the art world ecology and so I think if we were to say, okay, I'm a digital artist, I work outside of the centre, just like the artist Raphael Lozano Hemmer. who I did a commission with when I was working at Somerset House. You know, I couldn't do, I couldn't afford, as even though I was working in an institution, we couldn't afford to send me to Montreal to have a studio visit with Raphael. So we had to conduct our studio visits online and we still have the most incredible connection where we could get to commissioning his work for a major public artwork from having those online studio visits. So I think that the desire has to be there for you to actually want to participate and then doing a bit of research and going deep on what has that person contributed and why would I be in alignment with them is the first step that I would say.
Ceri: Does that align with your thoughts?
Paddy: Yeah, I do have a question, uh, I guess about the question of honesty, right? Because that came up when you were talking a couple of times about, uh, the importance of really being honest. About who you want to connect to. Now, I think the, the piece here where I would love a little bit of clarity is like, does honesty mean like being honest with yourself about how much work this is, or being honest about yourself, about what you actually want? Like, what does, what does honesty mean in, in the. situations that you have laid out?
Ceri: Yeah, that's a great question. Okay. So let's say we take an artist who really wants to be represented. by a commercial gallery. Yeah. And I spell out a lot of this. Actually, I have a free resource on my website, kerryhammond.com, which is how to work with commercial galleries and how to maintain relationships with commercial galleries. So a little bit of it would be knowing firstly, whether you have a consistent body of work by that, I mean, a consistent body of work over a period of time. that has a line of inquiry, if you like, there is a continuous line of inquiry over a number of years. So we're not just talking about one small body of work that is great. That may well be enough. If you're an artist coming out of a brilliant art school, for example, you're going to probably have more eyes on you as an emerging artist. But really, most commercial galleries want to see evidence of an artist's commitment to participating in the contemporary art world. That means that they're making work that has a unique point of view, they have something to say, and they are committed to trying to say it in the medium that suits their idea manifestation in the best possible way. That they have committed to trying to show locally, nationally, and internationally. That they are, um, participating by going to see other people's shows, by getting to know curators, by reading up as to kind of what's interesting, for the time that they happen to be living through.
Ceri: So every artist coming through at the moment is participating in a particular part of their culture. And there will be things that are of interest to commercial galleries that they want to be seen as representing artists that are contributing to the time that they're living through. So we see commercial galleries, for example, interest in artists who are working with technology or the technologies of today that are interested in the climate crisis, that are interested in what new biotech might do in identity politics. Commercial galleries want to be representing artists that are seen to be contributing to the ideas of our time. So, if you are making work that is Contributing in that way. Then knowing who your peers are, knowing which commercial galleries speak to the ideas that you want to interrogate is important. Going to commercial gallery shows, getting to know the directors because they, like artists are idiosyncratic in the, you know, what their interests are, what they are curious about. Every single commercial gallery has a different flavor to it. Because they're run by different people with different kinds of ideas about what they find exciting and interesting in the world.
Ceri: So if you want to be represented, it's that old adage, Paddy, you know, that if you want some love, you have to give it first. You know, so if you are interested in being represented, then you have to turn up to commercial gallery shows. You have to get to know other artists who are represented. You have to pay homage by complimenting somebody who's, who's put a lot of effort into showing up at an art fair and risking everything to take an artist who makes kind of crazy wild shit and try and sell it at the arse end of nowhere in another country.
Ceri: You know, it's an incredible contribution that those people are trying to make. So if you want to participate, you have to identify. what you're prepared to do in order to participate. So if you are prepared to make a consistent body of work, If you are interested in inviting people to the studio to talk to you about your work, if you are interested in supporting other artists, other curators, other writers, by, you know, commenting on what they're doing and celebrating what they do, because it's all a two way street.
Ceri: The artist is at the heart of the art world for sure, but they are part of a social system. They're part of an economic and social system. where you all support each other. And so whilst I believe, like you do Paddy, that artists are the central part and the most fundamentally important part of the art world, I also believe that the people who have success in the way that they want to, on their own terms, it's about being honest about what they're prepared to contribute. It's not just about making your own work. It's about adding value to other people.
Paddy: I think that's so smart. And I do think that that's, that's something that I, um, that comes up inside the membership that I run as well. Uh, and I think one struggle that many artists have is the amount of time That seems to be required to do this versus the amount of time that they have available to them to actually do the things. And, uh, on one level, you know, there's, uh, it's really true. Like there's a lot to do, and this is a career that requires a lot from people. Um, on the other, I think there's, you know, a question also of like, Being able to prioritize and it's, it's not even necessarily being able to prioritize, but as you have said, so eloquently kind of understanding where you want to participate so that your efforts are, you're not just spinning your wheels, you have a little bit more purpose and impact in what you're doing. I am wondering though, like. Like, just how much time do you think is required? Like, is there, is there a set amount of time?
Ceri: Yeah. I think in Unlock Your Art World Network, I recommend between two to four hours a week. And the reason that I'm going to break that down a little bit more, because I think there is, there's really a few steps to getting clarity and I think before I know all the artists listening will be thinking, Oh no, there's more to do. There's more to do. In fact, I would advocate. I think a great sustainable creative career is made from being more committed and determined to identifying what you really, really want, which is that part about honesty, which is if you want a major solo show, then you focus on what you need to do to get a major solo show first. And that's about breaking down into bite sized chunks the things that would be required in order to have a major solo show. So let's say we take that quite literally, that is, first of all we've got to make sure we've got an incredible body of work. You know, that we are, um, we have an editing process to be constantly reflecting on the work that we're making.
Ceri: So I would recommend you do a quarterly studio edit, for example. where you stand back and you edit out the wheat from the chaff, where you actually, you've got by the end of the year, you've got a major body of work, and you only show to other people the best of your work. I think very often, you know, um, it's easy to think I want a major solo show, but actually you're waiting until things are perfect. And I think you have to edit as you go and bring people into your journey Um, throughout the whole of the year, which is why studio visits are so important. I would say it's one of the most important things you could do is to take responsibility for your creative career by having at least one studio visit a month and I know that's going to make a lot of people's hair curl, but we're talking about, it could be a 30 minute. online studio visit with somebody. It could be a virtual coffee. When we're talking about studio visits, we're talking about opportunities to have interesting and exciting conversations about your work.
Ceri: So if you take responsibility for bringing people into your orbit as often as possible, you're going to create opportunities for yourself this year and next year. So you're not waiting until you've finished that whole body of work in order to land the solo show. No curator really wants to turn up and be pitched to have a solo show. They want to come in early at that journey with an artist to understand what can we do together? How can we build something that's exciting? And how can I participate in giving you the opportunity of a lifetime? So I always advocate for the fact that artists are usually more ready than they think. and they have to be willing to have conversations even when things are at early stages at sketch stages, at process stages, because for a curator like me, I've curated over 250 shows, and very rarely did any of those shows start out with what the artist thought they were going to be at the beginning. It's been, it's a process of transference, of enthusiasm, and skills, and knowledge exchange, and there's a whole bunch of So, the most important thing that any artist can do is to have as many studio visits as possible with as diverse a range of people in the art world as possible. So that includes other established artists. It includes writers, press, it includes curators at all stages of their journey. So curators that are coming fresh out of college, as well as the established ones. You know, not everybody can have a studio visit with Hansel or Gobrist from the Serpentine Gallery, for example.
Ceri: He's one of the most famous curators in the world, you know, it's just not possible. So there are curators that who are into the same weird shit as you're into. Those are your people. So you should be inviting people as often as possible into the studio and igniting each other's enthusiasms as you go. So if we start thinking about great quality of career, it's really about subtraction. It's not about addition. It's about getting clear on what it is you really want, and then just chunking down the steps that are going to help you to deliver that amazing show. There's no point in doing 300 really shit things. Because it takes up as much energy. It's doing one absolutely mind blowing thing. So, uh, we're talking about quality over quantity. Context is everything. Your running mates are everything. I hope that makes sense.
Paddy: I love the way that you put that, because I feel like subtracting over addition is something when we talk about time that feels empowering to people, right? Like to be able to do less, but to focus on those things and do them better is really, I think what is going to make a difference in an artist's career. And as you get more Established as you start getting, seeing more success. I always say that generally you get more busy, not less, but you have more agency over the time that you have. And that is where you measure. That success. Now, one of the things that's sort of coming up in it for me anyway, and everything that you've said, there are really two things, one, you can really see the depth of your experience, the 30 years you've spent in the art world, because everything that comes out of your mouth has that experience embedded in it. You really understand how the art world operates. And I think. You know, from an artist's perspective, but also from a curator's perspective, from a director's perspective, and that is so valuable. But the other thing that I think most people probably don't know about. Well, they might know about you if they visit your website, but like you are a registered coach. You've actually done training for that. And I feel like I can hear that and what you're talking about, because the way that you talk about like task management feels. Very much like you understand the principles of learning design, for example, and I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit about. What going down that path gave you, like, how does that distinguish you?
Paddy: Cause there are a lot of coaches out there, but we are, we are not all created equal. And what does that, what did that education do that, that helped you?
Ceri: Yeah. Thank you for the question. Thanks for kind words, buddy. I guess what I realized after that time working in the private sector, which I'm very happy to speak a bit more about that work at Simon Lee gallery Selling artists work as well as, you know, doing art fairs and writing and doing publishing works, I guess what I learned when I, I was mentoring when I closed, I had my own commercial gallery and I closed it in 2014. And whilst I figured out what I was going to do next, I mentored around 180 artists. And so, this time around, when I left my job as Director of Programmes at Somerset House, where, that was an institution at the heart of London, and we had about two and a half million visitors. I was responsible for all the exhibitions, the gigs in the courtyard, the skating rink for my sins, and the learning and skills program. And when COVID hit, um, Black Lives Matter and everything and the world turned upside down, I decided I was, I'd intended to leave that role and I was going to take up another post, but I decided instead to really think long and hard about what it was I wanted to do, who I wanted to add value to. And so instead of thinking about other politicians, if you like, which is when you become director of institutions, you become a kind of glorified politician in some ways. And whilst I can do that, and I love helping people to think bigger and make big things happen. I also really, artists are my people, you know, like really, I get the most joy from helping artists to do more than they thought was capable.
Ceri: And part of that I realized I could support artistry mentoring, but what I've come to know is that giving someone a roadmap is fine. And saying, I took this direction, it worked for me, or I took this direction and it worked for other people I've worked with is one thing. But really the mindset that is required to be an artist is the thing that we don't get trained. We don't get to art school or if we didn't go to art school, really the emotional rollercoaster of the journey that artists need to go through in order to make great work, it's really challenging. And we've also been sold this bullshit that, you know, we're, Uh, individuals and that we have to be individual geniuses, which I don't personally buy into, but I think that's put a lot of pressure on artists to think that they have to figure this shit out on their own. And so my understanding after mentoring even more artists in 2020 was that actually, unless I go back and actually help artists to really understand how to manage their thoughts differently, how to really get under the bonnet. of their brains, if you like, so that they can actually get their own engine in order, so that they've got the The kind of the know how and the understanding of how to manage those pesky thoughts when they go awry or how to bounce back quicker and be more resilient.
Ceri: Um, then actually I would just be setting them up to always be dependent. the next mentor, the next mentor. So I took all my years of mentoring experience and I, I went back to train as a coach so that I could understand how to help people see their own thoughts and the old stories that were standing in the way. So any of that early rewiring that needed or that rewiring that needed to be done that comes from kind of where we grow up, how we grow up, what conditions we grew up in, who we grew up with, all of those early patterns really can set us up for either success or failure, if you like, in so many words. And actually, it's so much easier than we think to, because of neuroplasticity and neuroscience, we can actually retrain and rewire some of our thoughts so that they are in better service to us, so that we can overcome those fears. We can do the hard stuff. We can have conversations with people that we never thought we'd be able to have conversations with. We can walk into a room and introduce ourselves. Things that frighten a lot of artists that I work with, you know, that even artists working at really significantly high levels. We say, I have this term in business, another level, another devil. And usually, you know, the, the different levels of, you know, Uh, learning and development you go through as an artist just generates different kinds of fears, different kinds of anxieties and so if I could help people to really understand their own psychological map, if you like, their own patterns that might thwart them. then really, I was going to enable them to see what more was possible, if they could conquer some of those thoughts, if they could find systems to kind of, in a way, dismantle some of the more negative bias, because we are, after all, wired for a negative bias. And as artists, because we're so sensitive to the world around us, we are often more wired, more acutely in tune with a negative bias in all kinds of ways. And so it felt like the most useful thing that I could do. So I have since invested thousands padding in my own training as a coach in getting qualified.
Ceri: And I'm actually now at master, um, coach.I just have to take my final exam. Um, uh, because that means doing thousands and thousands and thousands of hours worth of coaching with all people at different levels, different places in the world. Um, but also you get observed, you have to work with other coaches, you get trained by people who are much more senior level than me. And so you actually have to pass an exam if you like. And so to be part of an international coaching federation, um, qualified coach, you have to pass different stages of, um, exams. And so I think the one thing that I would say, the reason I know it's made an impact is because it's also helped me as a, I'm not from a wealthy background. I had to really train myself differently so that I could come to terms with how to help artists make money. I had to change my own stories about how I related to money, how I could add value to people and to help them add value. to the world. So I had to go through lots of those experiences myself, but also understand what else, what other work I needed to do.
Ceri: So you have lots of psychological training as well as, um, the practice that it takes. And I think in a very short space of time, I've learned, um, that actually really being able to see the patterns of your own thinking helps us to become better negotiators, not just in our creative careers, but in our home life with our partners, with our kids. It's negotiating in the workplace, but also to help other people. So pretty much everyone that I coach, I would say, is lifting other people behind them. And I think that's part of the generous reciprocal kind of artwork that I want to be part of, that I knew, I know that's where you exist too, Paddy, which is why we've connected on so many levels.
Paddy: Yeah. So when you talk about the, uh, training that you've done, it sounds like part of the training allows you to recognize patterns and then be able to say, okay, like, this is a pattern it's actually consistent with a certain stage, like certain career stage, and these are the things that we can do to get beyond These patterns so that we can move past this stage. Is that, am I summarizing correctly?
Ceri: Yeah, that's right. There's, I guess, lots of people who would say that there's connections or similarities to therapy, but it's not therapy. I have to be really honest. There is a definite difference between therapy and coaching. Coaching is really future facing, but with an understanding of what systems or structures or thought patterns or belief systems might have been established. So when you go into a relationship with a coach, they are in a safe space together. I usually call it, it's a brave space where somebody shares the challenges that they are trying to overcome. Whether that's, you know, developing, um, a new body of work from a museum or earning an income for their work. And you start looking at those challenges and in the coaching space, you act as independent, I guess, observers of the thoughts that the client is sharing with you. And together, you're looking at those thoughts and seeing how useful they are to you and whether they could be replaced by other thoughts that serve you better.
Ceri: So you have a look at what's standing in the way, and there are models, there are coaching models that I can draw on. Some people might be familiar with the GROW framework, uh, probably for this podcast. Um, I'd be very happy to share more if anyone is interested. Um, but there are a number of different models, and each coach basically takes out the tools in order to help somebody understand what might serve them better. So you might have a practical exercise. You might have a, so we might do something together online or in real life. We might, um, have a walking, practice, we might have a writing practice together, but there are ways of basically deconstructing some of the thoughts and actions that you've been applying, but that really could be put to better use. So in the coaching training, you are You are learning those different models and systems. You have to do a hell of a lot of reading on other coaches, but therapists and, um, understand what models might serve your particular client base. Now, I'm quite unusual in that I'm a coach who's serving artists and creative leaders at certain levels.
Ceri: So I work with high level thinkers who are really adept at putting their thoughts to work in creating work. And actually a lot of the creative tools that they use in their practice or their creative work, jobs, if you like, very often haven't been mobilized when it comes to their own way of behaving or their own way of perceiving themselves. So for example, I might work with some leaders who are senior level leaders, but still have that imposter syndrome, still, still have a fear of negotiating at a high level. I might work with a, an artist or a comedian or a writer, for example, who has already achieved a lot but has a creative block that actually isn't connected to where they thought they were, they were going to be in their career. You know, there's some old stories that are standing in the way of them achieving what they want to achieve. So I think in that process of discovery together, it usually, to be honest, I've got to the point where it can take between four to six sessions to make significant life changing change, but actually the coaching process, you know, people have worked, have incredible discoveries after even just 15 minutes in some of those sort of the coaching containers that I work with, because just we haven't had that time afforded where somebody is paying love and respect and deep, deep listening to understand what's a play for somebody.
Ceri: And so when you're coaching, you're observing. The whole body, you're observing what's being said, what's not being said, the way the body is talking to you, the way somebody looks up to the side, the way they articulate themselves, the words they use, and you're really noticing the gaps and reflecting back to somebody and saying, You know that you notice this and there's no judgment at all, but just saying, this is curious, you know, I noticed these patterns in the way that you're observing this thing about yourself. Is that true? Are these things really, where is the evidence for these things? And so you're unpacking together, um, really those systems that might be in place and actually it's very rare that we've had somebody pay that close attention to us. And so it's, uh, it's incredible what happens. And I think mostly I would say that I've had, I'm lucky Paddy and I've had a hundred percent success rate so far with the people that I've worked with.
Ceri: But coaching is not for everybody. Some people aren't coachable because of the way their brains work, you know, but I work with a lot of neurodivergent creatives because it's such a high percentage of the people that's their superpower in the art world. And so the way their brains work. It takes a very particular kind of coaching in order to make that useful exercise for them. I hope that makes sense.
Paddy: Now, do you, um, screen clients in any way or, because you've had a hundred percent success rate and you just said that some people aren't coachable. Is there anybody that you would then say, okay, like I've taken a look at your profile or whatever. I don't think you're coachable. Or is it something different?
Ceri: I perhaps wouldn't, I perhaps wouldn't articulate it in quite that way. Um, but I would, um, I might say that it's fine. I think in all fairness, I think evil only is good as the process allows. So somebody, when you are being coached, there is radical candor and somebody has to be ready to have that honesty and to be in a place where they can accept feedback. And that's not feedback as there's no criticism or judgment in place. But in all honesty, you know, sometimes we're at a point in our lives where actually it might feel too raw or too painful. We're going through something like death or loss or, you know, a divorce. We're actually, we're a little fragile or a little more defensive necessarily to get through a particular phase in our life. So it might not be the right time. And I think in the chemistry call or discovery call that I, myself and my, um, client, my, sorry, my team would have, it's really understanding in that moment kind of where somebody's at and what they need. And, might be that actually just one of our courses or one of our group coaching containers might be better for where they're at and what they need. And that might be a better introduction in terms of this kind of deeper, it's a, it's a relationship where you are both facilitating the growth of the clients.
Ceri: And if I'm in, then I'm a hundred percent in, you know, and so really that commitment to getting some new results. If I. If I don't believe that I can help them get a result for whatever reason they're presenting, or I get a sense that I'm not their person, I might recommend somebody else, you know, I might say, actually, I don't think I'm for you, you know, it might be that one of my associates because I have associate coaches that I work with. I'd recommend. And so I'm lucky that I've most, I've matched people with other coaches that I work with. If I don't think we're a good match, because I also have to be honest, I want to help everybody, but I'm only one human. It's not possible. And so over the last four years, I've also helped a lot of associate coaches build their businesses and, you know, help a lot of people. And so part of the mission was really just to share the love, you know, I'm not here to just kind of, um, Hulk everybody. But also, you know, I think we have to be honest ourselves. You know, I like art. I like ambitious people who may be on the tipping point of something exciting and great and who are happy and okay with being weird. That's my thing. I like, I like encouraging people to be more weird. That's my thing. You know, I'm not here to round anybody's edges off. Quite, quite the opposite.
Paddy: I mean, I had to explain to somebody who is outside of the art world recently, that weird was a compliment inside this work, inside this, this world, I think one of the things that I was thinking about as you were talking about the work that you do, uh, is that there, at least in the US and I think outside of the U S as well, like coaches really, uh, the term is applied sort of willy nilly and I think coach can mean a consultant, you know, like an artist consultant that comes in and gives feedback on X, Y, Z thing. Um, and then there's something that's, uh, that you're talking about. That's more like extended work between, you know, four and six sessions where you're sort of diving into things that on a deeper level, and I think it's really good to, um, Make that distinction, uh, because like what you're getting is, is different and it's answering different needs. I did have one question for you, and I think like this, this does have to do with also, Like the coaching that you're talking about also seems to encompass a lot of mental space, right? And so there's the work that we do that has to do with what you were talking about before about identifying a goal and then chunking the steps to get to that goal down so that you can really focus and achieve what you want to do.
Paddy: And also sort of, I guess, like work with. More focus, right? And then there's the other part of this where you have to manage your emotions and managing your emotions is a really big part of this because a lot of the work that we do that involves growth is very scary and it's very hard to do. And a lot of times we don't make these changes until our back is up against the ladder. And we don't have any choice. And I actually think that that's normal. I think that making any kind of major change or major jump in your career, it takes an enormous amount of courage. And with that courage, I think also comes a certain amount of, um, self doubt and, uh, feeling like crap. And you had like just a little mini podcast where you talked about what you. What you did. Um, to deal with that. And you actually have like a penalty that you impose on yourself. If you start really indulging and not just like the negative self-talk, but the like, uh, you know, I'm feeling like shit today, I'm just going to like scroll through Instagram. Spend a hundred hours on TV. Well, there's only 24 hours in a day, but you know, whatever it is that you need to do to kind of, I'm feeling bad and I'm going to make myself feel worse because that's, I don't know if the internal monologue is, that's what I deserve, but it's part of just like, I'm just going to dig my heels into this.
Ceri: Yeah.
Ceri: It's a really, it's an interesting thing and I, the reason I use myself as an example in that Paddy is because I, We're all a work in progress, right? So I think if you have a creative brain, which let's face it, you know, that's why we're, we're both here trying to help people manage their creative brains. It's really your thoughts are your work. You know, you, you are these incredible people who, Manifest the most incredible things in the world from your thoughts. And so, you also have, as well as those incredible, brilliant thoughts that make great paintings or sculpture or VR works, you also have thoughts that occasionally are cruel and mean and, you know, preferably kick the shit out of yourself. And I am no different. And so, um, Going back to that time that you talked about where people say how do, how do I make the time when I've got a family, I've got kids, I've got a day job, you know, how do I make time? And then when I really dig into it, you know, people have actually looked at their scroll time on their phone and they've actually killed four hours, doom scrolling on their phone. And you know, I'm doing exactly the same, or I have done exactly the same, where I'm like, actually, I'm procrastinating, I'm putting off doing the thing. I don't know if you know the phrase, eating the frog, Paddy, you know, where, you know, you're putting off doing like, so it's like basically where if you were being sensible, you would eat the frog, let's do the shittiest, hardest thing first in your day, before you do all the other things.
Ceri: Because once you've done that you get your dopamine hit, you overcome your fear, and you get over your procrastination. You know, but there are days, of course, when I would rather doomscroll or watch RuPaul's Drag Race than actually write that newsletter or write an article. I think that idea that actually knowing and being honest and vulnerable with each other, and I've, I've had to practice being more vulnerable with people publicly. I And because, you know, I'm, as I said, I'm a shy person, it's not a natural state for me, but I've learned that only the world opens up the more vulnerable I'm prepared to be, within reason, of course, and the more honest I am at saying, actually, you know what, some days my brain just literally thinks that I'm a piece of useless shit, and I should hide under the duvet, you know, so, But what I've done is learn how to manage that emotional rollercoaster better so that I recognize it and I can feel the feelings. You know, I can feel the feelings and that they don't flood my engine to the point of immobilization. So I try to give myself a worry window. You know, like if I get that shit email from somebody, or, um, something doesn't go as planned, I give myself a 10 minute worry window, where I indulge those thoughts, like, ooh, God, whatever, you know? And then I'm just like, yeah, whatever. Whatever! It's, you know, it's part of being a creative person. I'm used to, and I deliberately try to get a hundred no's as often as possible. You know? I just have to be willing to get a hundred no's and then one great thing is going to happen. And so, by practicing these techniques and helping others, to practice these techniques.
Ceri: I decided I was going to give myself, I was going to make a crap manifesto, which as we quite rightly say, I read out on my mini podcast. And I recommend everyone has a crap manifesto, because if you think that you'd get out of this creative journey without feeling like a pile of shit some days, then you've got another thing coming. We all do. But it's whether or not feeling like that is stuck in some pattern where it feels more comfortable to give yourself an internal kicking than it does to eat the frog and do the tougher thing. Because the reality is our brain is wired for efficiency and pleasure. So its main job is to keep you safe and to stop bad things from happening to you. So if you know that your brain is wired for a negative bias, every single day it is going to give you some negative thoughts. It's just, that's the way it is, and if you're creative you're going to get a whole heap more negative thoughts than your average person.
Ceri: So, I have some techniques, and one of the things I had to do this morning was just journal. As soon as I got out of bed, because I woke up, I just came back from a week's holiday paddy, the first holiday I've had in four years. And would you believe, I had the most wonderful time, and yet I woke up this morning, feeling rubbish. How does that work? Do you know, my brain just went into doing its thing, which is like, Oh, man. So before I could even put on, put on the emails, look at my phone, my instinct, I had to override them and say, no, I'm just going to journal. So I spent 45 minutes getting all of the crap out of my brain so that I could actually get on with my day. And then have a wonderful thing like this to look forward to, to share with you. So I think it's just knowing that there are simple techniques and tools that you can learn that help you to manage those emotions. And that is part of your job. If you are a creative person, it is part of your job to not just roll over and give in to the black dog or any of those difficult, um, feelings and experiences, because that is an indulgence that you can't afford to, you can't afford to stoke that fire for too long, because you're going to usurp your creativity. And really, as a creative, you've got one of the best gifts in the world.
Ceri: You know, you add value to people in the most incredible way. And so, you know, our job's really back to is to help people. You know, clear the weeds from the path so they can keep adding amazing, brilliant things to the world. And that means just allowing yourself to get help. Ask for help. There is absolutely no reason why you should struggle on your own and that idea that you can and you should is absolutely bullshit. How do you think all of the wealthy people in the world become wealthy? Because they ask for help and they get it. Build networks. They ask on a regular basis. And they are
Paddy: I think that is something that is built into the class consciousness at that level. Like they're used to telling people to do work for them. They're used to getting help. I think that's something that we all have to get used to as well.
Ceri: Yeah, a hundred percent, which is why most of the people that I would invite onto my podcast, and I know you too, Paddy, they're people who don't come from wealthy backgrounds. They're people who have just figured stuff out the hard way, and they're willing to share their expertise and knowledge. And there are lots of us out there like that. So, yeah, my key message is don't struggle alone. You know, there are systems and constructed things in the world, and That there are people out there who are willing to demystify and help you understand so that you don't have to keep bashing your head against a brick wall and, uh, hoping it'll work out okay. You know, the main thing is just identify what you want and learn the skills and the tools and the mindset that is required to actually make it happen. Because it is possible, for not just for us, but for everybody. So, yeah, we're on a mission to help people.
Paddy: Ceri, that is amazing. And I think actually that's a perfect note to end on. I want to thank you so much for coming on this show. I feel like this was an hour of just. pure illumination. And I cannot wait to talk to you online. Everybody who wants to know more about you, where should they go?
Ceri: Thank you, Paddy. Um, so at Ceri, which is C E R I, which is actually a Welsh spelling is Ceri Hand, H A N D dot com. (cerihand.com) You'll find ways, there are free resources on there, like how to work with commercial galleries, how to have studio visits. I do affordable, short masterclasses, we've got one coming up soon, on studio visits, but also how to, uh, work with commissioners, and we also have our course, Unlock Your Artwork Network.
Ceri: So hopefully there's enough there, but we also have a free newsletter where I speak the block is my weekly coaching advice, and that's free. So people can just subscribe and sign up and get discounts to things too. Oh, and follow @cerihand on socials.
Paddy: Ah, there you go. All right. Thanks so much, Ceri. Bye bye.
Paddy
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